Holding On and Letting Go: Modern Friendship in Women’s Lives

What if friendships were just as vital to our health as sleep, nutrition, and exercise? Research suggests they might be. But in our fast-paced, modern world, nurturing deep and lasting friendships can feel overwhelming.

In this episode, I sit down with journalist and author Anna Goldfarb to explore the evolving landscape of friendship—why it can be so challenging to maintain meaningful connections as we move through different life phases, and what we can do to strengthen the relationships that nourish us the most.

Anna’s book, Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections, gave me so many “aha” moments about why friendships shift, how we can show up for each other in a more intentional way, and how to release the guilt we sometimes feel when friendships change.

Join us as we unpack:

• How relationships have changed over time—why past generations had built-in social structures that kept friendships steady, and how today’s hyper-fluid, fast-paced world has reshaped the way we connect.
• How understanding the difference between “bathtub friends,” “swimming pool friends,” and “memorial friends” can ease the strain in relationships and help us let go of unrealistic expectations.
• Why some friendships fade over time (and why it’s not your fault!) and how to cope with changing relationships.
• The impact of social media on our lives and how having ‘friends’ online can leave us feeling more lonely than not. 
• How we can keep connections alive through life changes—from motherhood to career shifts, big moves, and more.
• What to do when a connection feels out of sync—how to know whether to repair it or let it go.

If you’ve ever felt lonely, longed for deeper relationships, or struggled to navigate the shifting nature of connection as life evolves—this conversation is for you.

Quick Tips for Nurturing Your Relationships

• Connections evolve—and that’s okay. Research shows we lose about half of our close relationships every seven years. Instead of taking it personally, recognize that life phases naturally shift our social circles.
• Building strong bonds requires intentionality. Unlike childhood friendships that form effortlessly, adult relationships require conscious effort. Make time, check in, and prioritize those who make you feel seen and valued.
• Show up in ways that matter. Instead of generic invites like “Let’s get dinner,” support others in a way that reflects their reality—bring a meal to a new mom, offer career support to a job-seeking friend, or simply sit in silence with someone grieving.
• Not all connections serve the same role. Some people are for deep talks, others for shared hobbies. Recognizing the different “tiers” of relationships—bathtub friends (deepest confidantes), swimming pool friends (social companions), and memorial friends (people we cherish but may not see often)—helps set realistic expectations.
• Don’t be afraid of a “pause.” Not every relationship needs a dramatic ending. Sometimes, life circumstances change, and stepping back without guilt allows room for reconnection down the road.
• Express appreciation. Tell people what they mean to you! Knowing they are valued strengthens the bond and makes them more likely to invest in the connection, too.
• Quality over quantity. In an era of social media “friends,” true connection matters more than ever. A few close, meaningful relationships can have a greater impact on your well-being than a hundred surface-level acquaintances.

The way we connect in our modern lives is changing, but meaningful relationships are still the key to a healthy, fulfilling life. Have a listen to learn how to nourish the connections that truly matter. If this episode resonated with you, share it with a friend who might need a reminder of their own power. And if you loved it, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps other women find this show!

Links Mentioned in Show:

Connect with Anna:

• Instagram: @annagoldfarb
• Substack: annagoldfarb.substack.com/
• Book: Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections (Available wherever books are sold)

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The Transcript: Holding On and Letting Go: Modern Friendship in Women’s Lives with Anna Goldfarb

This transcript has been edited for length and clarity.

Aviva: I was recently interviewed by Gabrielle Espinoza on her podcast Pleasure in the Pause, and she asked me what I felt was the most important thing for me while moving through menopause. My answer came swiftly and easily—I said, “My female friendships.” And it is the truest thing I can say.

My partner is great; we’ve been together for 40 years, but there are just edges where he doesn’t get it. Being aligned with other women who are going through similar things in my phase of life has been a lifesaver. It’s been so healthy and normalizing.

When I think back on it, the same can be said for all the other big transitions in my life. Puberty—it was my best friend, who I’ve known since sixth grade. We went through menopause at the same time. Motherhood—I had my couple of motherhood best friends. Even through midwifery and medical training, lifelong friendships were forged.

For so many women, our friendships anchor us in ways that our partners, children, and families sometimes can’t. In my experience, female friendships hold space for things only other women can truly understand—the invisible labor we carry as mothers, the body shifts we go through at various phases of our lives, the hormonal rollercoasters, the midlife reinventions. Our best friends walk beside us through heartbreak, healing, and transformation.

But truth be told, friendships aren’t always so easy. When I think back on my best friends from when I was raising kids, those women are deeply important, but they’re not front and center in my life in the same way anymore. Different women are front and center in my life right now.

We all know the pain and confusion of friendships that don’t last—the self-searching, the what did I do wrong? and what’s going on? Research shows that after age 20, we lose about half of our close friends every seven years. A lot of us aren’t replacing those friendships nearly as fast as we move into our thirties, forties, and beyond.

We’ve also been fed many myths and expectations about friendships, some of which lead to anxiety, confusion, and disappointment. More people than ever report having fewer friends or feeling that the friendships they do have aren’t as fulfilling as they once were.

In fact, in one study, 40% of people said they don’t feel as emotionally close to their friends as they’d like, and many wish they had more time to spend with their friends. Researchers call that longingness—that quiet ache for deeper connection, even when you technically have friends.

So if you’ve been feeling isolated or disconnected, you’re not alone. Here’s the thing—and this is really important—our friendships are vital to our well-being. Some researchers suggest they may even be as important as sleep, nutrition, or exercise.

But in our fast-paced world, where motherhood, careers, and life transitions keep us stretched thin, friendships sometimes take a backseat. In a world of social media “friends,” we can still feel lonely. When friendships falter, it can feel like a part of ourselves is missing.

Yesterday, after three weeks of travel, I finally had the chance to pick up Modern Friendship by Anna Goldfarb to prep for my interview today. I have to say, I thought, Alright, it’s about friendship. I’ve read some of her articles. I’ll do a little light reading.

This was around two in the afternoon, and, y’all, I could not put the book down. It’s fresh, funny, and filled with perfect little swear bombs tucked in. It’s so real. It felt like Anna had cracked open my journal and started reading my most secret fears about friendship, my peeves, and my desires about having—and being—a friend.

Which is why I’m so excited to welcome Anna Goldfarb to the show.

Anna is a journalist and author of Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections. She’s here to help us unpack why friendships falter, why they matter more than ever for our health, and, importantly, how to rebuild, deepen, and nurture the friendships that sustain us through every stage of life.

Whether you’re craving deeper connections, grieving a friendship drift, or wondering if you’re the only one struggling to make new friends in your thirties, forties, or beyond, I deeply hope this episode reminds you that you’re normal—and that you’re okay. Even when friendships change over time, it’s okay to have a smaller group of friends.

Many of us have to navigate busy lives while nurturing friendships and struggling with the fact that some of our dearest friends may live thousands of miles away.

So however your friendships are showing up in your life right now, I truly hope this conversation helps you feel more sane, more seen, and, frankly, more normal—just like Anna’s book did for me. Anna, welcome!

Anna: That was beautiful. I’m tearing up. That means so much to me.

Aviva: Well, thank you!

Anna: That you said such wonderfully kind, lovely words about my work—thank you so much.

Aviva: You’re so welcome. You are a really talented writer. It’s rare that a book makes me feel like I’m actually sitting with someone who is being truly authentic. The way you weave in little personal reflections that are honest, transparent, and so normalizing—I think that’s why I just couldn’t put it down. I kept thinking, Okay, where is she going next? What is she going to say?

Even the little things—like a product you were buying at the store, the connection you had around it—you were so explicit about the details that it felt like, Oh, she just invited me into her bathroom. She just invited me into her kitchen. I loved that.

Anna: That means so much to me because you’re right—there are so many friendship books out there. My mantra when writing this book was: Don’t be boring. I wanted to say new things, tell new stories, and have it feel fresh.

Aviva: I felt the weight of this opportunity—this was my chance to really talk to people, to make them feel validated and seen. I know we use this word all the time, but I wanted them to feel empowered. I wanted to explain these big concepts about society and culture in ways that feel personal and true.

Anna: That means so much to me because you’re right—there are so many friendship books out there. My mantra when writing this book was: Don’t be boring. I wanted to say new things, tell new stories, and have it feel fresh. Even my title is a little bit boring, really, but I wanted to under-promise and over-deliver.

Aviva: I like the title!

Anna: Modern Friendship—okay, what’s this going to be? But I wanted it to be like, Oh my God, this is actually really relatable. I felt the weight of this opportunity. This was my chance to really talk to people and make them feel validated, seen. And I know we use this word all the time, but empowered—like, this is the gig, this is what’s up. I wanted to explain these big concepts about society and culture in ways that feel personal and true.

Aviva: Yeah, it does all of that. I felt like it grounded me in a context of, You’re totally not alone. There’s nothing wrong with you in the different iterations you’ve gone through in friendships in your life. It was very… I felt like part of something, which is really beautiful.

And I have to say, among your little token swear bombs, which I loved—I’m a New Yorker, and I spent decades of my life intentionally not ever cursing. Then I went to residency, where it was just sort of part of life, and I really find it can be fun and therapeutic to just speak that way.

And here’s something hilarious—so, we live in a very rural area, and we have big hills. It’s a very popular area for bike riding, but some of the hills are just too steep for me. So, I ultimately got an e-bike, which is really nice. But I was on my regular bike trying to go up a hill to get back to my house, and there were these five telephone poles.

I got from the first telephone pole to the second one, which was my first landmark. Then, the second one got steeper. And I literally hop off my bike, stand there, and go, Okay, yo. And I’m saying—okay, cover your kid’s ears—Yo, bitch, you’ve got this! Get on your bike. Be a baller.

I’m literally having this whole, I don’t know… I’m rap-motivating myself.

Anna: You’re hyping yourself up! You’re like your own hype man.

Aviva: Yep.

Anna: The Flavor Flav of bike riding.

Aviva: Exactly! And then I got a study in my inbox yesterday that actually showed how cursing while you exercise can increase your exercise capacity. I showed it to my husband, and he was like, There you go.

Anyway, I think you keep it real in a really fresh way. Also, I dressed up for you today. I’ve never dressed up for a podcast interview before!

Anna: That was the first thing I noticed—you look really pretty today.

Aviva: Thank you! I love boy bands and punk music. I love girl band punk music too. And as I was reading your book, you had these little kind of threads where you had this best friend you went to the punk scene with—although I think you had some not-so-good things happen with that particular friend and a guy. But you dropped it a few times, and I thought, I’m going to pull out my British little punk tie.

Anna: Yes!

Aviva: So, I dressed for you—plus red lipstick. I went all in.

Anna: Beautiful.

Aviva: Alright, you. So, let’s take it from the top. First, who are you? You’re a journalist—you could be writing about anything. What is it about friendship? Was it something personal that happened? Something you read about, witnessed, that made you think, Okay, I’m going to spend however long it takes to write this book talking about friendship?

Anna: Yeah. I’m obsessed with friendship, and part of that is because I’m a pinball. I’ve moved around a lot. I was born in upstate New York, which I low-key hated. Then I moved to outside Chicago, which I loved. Then I moved to New York City, which I loved. Then I ricocheted to Philly, which I love now. I mean, I love it—it has a charm.

Aviva: And this was for changes in your family situation—like, your parents moving—and then later, for work, college, grad school?

Anna: That, and I made these really deep, intense friendships in all these different spaces in my life, but then I’d have to renegotiate them as I moved around—or they moved around. We go to college and meet such deeply interesting people who are into the same stuff we’re into, and then we’re blasted apart from one another.

I’d spend a lot of energy keeping up these friendships—visiting my friends in the different cities they moved to. And I just felt like my friends became these wild stallions that were dragging me through the dirt. Like, Am I doing enough? Are they doing enough?

I felt disappointed—Why isn’t my friend making more of an effort to see me? I could say this friend was my best friend three years ago, but today I’m not sure. And there was so much uncertainty that it was something I thought about all the time. I felt really out of control, and I just wanted to learn more about it.

I used to write about romance and dating. I had a blog that was turned into a book about my dating life called Clearly, I Didn’t Think This Through. I was more interested in dudes and dating. But then once I met my husband, that was settled. I didn’t need to decipher the dating world anymore.

Then, I turned my attention to my friendships. And I was like, Whoa. This is really a lot.

I was kind of a people-pleaser. I’d say yes to things I didn’t want to do, out of fear that I wouldn’t be asked anymore if I didn’t say yes. I felt held hostage by these relationships that I cared about so much.

I had four friends at my wedding in 2017, and I only talk to two of them now.

It was this buckling of friendships—Why aren’t these friendships holding? Usually, my friends were having more complicated problems that I didn’t know how to address or support. I didn’t know how to show up for them in the right way.

I felt like I was saying the wrong thing all the time, which created distance. The stakes felt really high. We live in a culture that says, Oh, your friend disappointed you? You don’t need them. Get rid of them.

And I felt this panic—friendships are so easy to shed. I didn’t grow up in Philly. I don’t have school ties, I don’t have neighborhood ties. It’s so transient. And so, what do people like me do? How do we navigate this?

I started reporting on friendships in 2017 for The New York Times, and that was the first time I interacted with a friendship expert. I didn’t even know that such a thing existed! I was like, Wait, what? It was Shasta Nelson—she still writes books, she’s very active in the friendship space—and it just blew my mind that friendship was something knowable. Friendships had always felt so unknowable, so mysterious.

And to think that there’s logic here, that we could diagnose things—I could push on one lever and see a result, pull back in another way and see a result. The more I learned about friendships, the more questions I had.

Then, the pandemic happened, and all of us collectively had to renegotiate our friendships. Our routines were disrupted. We had to figure out, Which friend am I going to see? Which ones am I going to keep in touch with? I mean, it was a life-and-death situation with this virus going around. The stakes were insanely high—Who am I going to invest in? Whose friendships am I going to keep afloat?

A lot of the advice we got during the pandemic was, Reach out to people! This is the time to reach out to old friends! But I sensed that advice was incomplete. It was like, Well, why did you lose touch in the first place? And what’s going to change now?

So, you have this really great conversation for two hours, you catch up on everything… but how does that translate to an active friendship? If anything, more time ends up passing because you’re like, Okay, you’re cool. You sound like you’re good. You’re busy. You’re doing your thing. I’ll see you around. It didn’t lead to more connection. So, that’s what I wanted to investigate with this book—What is going on here?

Our phones are full of friends we love, but we don’t reach out to them. Why? This is crazy!

Aviva: Yeah, there’s so much to unpack here. First, I’d love to start at the top where you started, which is that you had ping-ponged around a lot. And I think there are few people these days who grew up in the same place, stayed for college in the same place, went to grad school—if they did—lived in the same place, and stayed there.

There are some people like that. I meet them sometimes, and every now and then, I feel these deep pangs of envy. And I know my kids do too, because my kids grew up in a variety of places. They don’t have one place where all of them grew up, with friends they can all return to and say, This is home.

So, is that part of what’s happening with modern friendships? Have we lost that? I don’t mean to romanticize, but when I look back at my grandparents, for example, they lived, grew up, and spent their lives within a very small radius around New York. They had their “Friends Club,” they had their “Cousins Club”—and these were friends and cousins they’d had since childhood. Once a month, they’d get together with the Cousins Club and play cards, and once a month, the Friends Club would play cards. They’d rotate houses, and as a little girl, I was under the table while they were playing cards or watching TV in the next room. Or I was invited to go spend the night at a cousin’s house.

So, there was this deep stability.

Whereas for me—I grew up in New York, but I went to college early in Massachusetts. I was really young—I went to college at 15.

Those friendships didn’t necessarily follow into motherhood. The friendships I had when I became a mother didn’t necessarily follow into medical school. A lot of my mother-friends couldn’t relate to what I was doing when I went to med school. They were loving, but our lives just weren’t aligned anymore.

And then there’s proximity. That changes everything.

What are some of the things you’re seeing about how friendships evolve? And one thing I’ve noticed lately—politics is even dividing friendships.

What are some of the broader cultural and circumstantial factors at play? Because I think a lot of people assume, It’s me. I must be doing something wrong. But actually, there’s something bigger going on.

Anna: Yes, yes—well said.

What I’ve learned is that our grandparents didn’t have to work this hard at friendships. They lived in a community, went to a synagogue, or had their neighborhood group. They didn’t have to try very hard to keep friendships afloat because there were built-in social structures—institutions that helped facilitate socializing.

Now? We live in hyper-fluid society. One of the trade-offs is that we can befriend almost anyone, anywhere.

For example, I’m in several video groups with other authors. We meet every week, and we talk about our books and what it’s like having them out in the world. But we live all over the country! We can talk about anything we want, and it’s great—it’s cheap, it’s free. But the trade-off is, I can’t just go out for coffee with them. I can’t give them a hug.

Aviva: That’s so funny you say that because I’ve become friends with a woman who was a guest on my podcast. She lives in California, and we didn’t know we’d both be at an event recently in New York. We were standing next to each other in line for water, and she looked at me, and I looked at her. If it were my best friend who I’ve known forever, it would have been instant recognition. But instead, we had this split second of, Wait, I know you… Then we hugged—this huge hug—and then we both realized: Oh my God, we’ve actually never met in person before.

It’s crazy.

There are friendships we have now where we’ve never met the people in real life. And then there are friendships that are deeply important to us, but those friends live a thousand or two thousand miles away. And a lot of us work on computers all day long. At the end of the day, it’s not like we necessarily want to get on Zoom just to catch up. So, it creates these spaces and distances.

And then, at least for me, I start thinking, Well… are we actually close anymore? Or am I just imagining that we are? I mean, we might only talk once a month or every two months.

So, for me, there’s some confusion. Does this space and distance mean we’re not as close? What does it all mean?

Anna: Our grandmothers did not have to navigate this. They didn’t have to question whether someone was still their best friend because they saw them all the time. Their best friend lived two doors down, and they had known them for 40 years. They didn’t have to juggle a variety of connections from different parts of their life like we do now.

We live in what’s called a spoke network, like a bicycle wheel. We’re in the middle, and all of our friendships branch out from us. The problem? They only share history with us, not necessarily with each other.

So we have to be the cruise director. We have our clipboard, figuring out:

• Which friendships do I want to keep active?

• Why do I want to keep them active?

• How much time and effort am I putting into this?

We don’t have the help of institutions and cultural norms to guide us in the way our grandparents did.

And one of the biggest shifts? Friendships used to be built around obligation.

Aviva: Right!

Anna: In our grandparents’ generation, you didn’t just drop a friend because they disappointed you. They were part of your community—your neighborhood, your synagogue, your church, your extended family. But today? Friendships are built more around entertainment value.

Aviva: That’s such a shift!

Anna: Right? Instead of, Who can I rely on? Who is in my everyday life?, it becomes, Who is fun to go out to dinner with? Who do I like to go to concerts with? Who shares my interests?

So when that entertainment piece fades—when the circumstances that brought us together change—the friendship sometimes fizzles out.

Aviva: Oh my gosh. That’s huge.

Anna: Right? So, instead of integrated friendships that serve multiple purposes in our lives, we now have these segmented, compartmentalized friendships.

It’s like, This is my yoga friend. This is my hiking friend. This is my book club friend. And that’s great! But it also means that if we stop doing that thing together, we often don’t know what else to talk about.

Aviva: That is so insightful. And it makes me think of something else, too—our grandmothers had to work through conflict with their friends. If there was a disagreement, they still had to see each other at temple, at church, at the grocery store. Now? We can just… disappear.

Anna: Exactly. Ghosting isn’t just for dating anymore!

Aviva: Yes! If a friend hurts us or if we have a falling out, there’s no forced reconciliation—no external force pushing us to repair the relationship.

Anna: Yes. And, of course, some friendships should end—some aren’t healthy. But we’ve also lost some of the skills needed to work through difficulties in friendships because we’ve been conditioned to think, If they disappointed me, I don’t need them. I’ll just move on. But sometimes friendships just need a reset, not an ending.

Aviva: That’s so powerful.

And I’ve experienced this personally. I have a dear friend who I absolutely love, but we’re in different life stages. She has a young child, and I have grown kids. And I noticed myself feeling like, Is she pulling away? Does she not care about me anymore? Then I took a step back and realized—no, she’s just exhausted. She’s navigating a completely different season of life, and she doesn’t have the same time and energy for our friendship that she did before.

So instead of taking it personally, I started asking, How can I show up for her in a way that makes sense for where she is in her life right now?

Anna: That is such a healthy way to look at it. We have to move away from this all-or-nothing mindset with friendships. Just because a friendship isn’t the same as it used to be doesn’t mean it’s over. It might just mean it’s in a different phase.

Aviva: That reminds me of something you talk about in your book—social identity support.

Anna: Yes!

Aviva: Can you explain that concept?

Anna: Absolutely. Social identity support is one of the most important ingredients in a lasting friendship. It means seeing your friend for all the roles they play in life—their career, their family responsibilities, their cultural background—and actively supporting them in those roles.

So, for example, if your friend is a new mom, instead of saying, Let’s get dinner sometime, you say, Hey, I know you’ve been up all night with the baby. Can I bring you some food? Can I hold the baby for a bit so you can take a nap? Or if your friend just lost their job, instead of saying, Let me know if you need anything, you say, Hey, I know you’re in between jobs. Do you want to come over for dinner this week? My treat.

It’s about making your friendship work within the reality of your friend’s life.

Aviva: Wow. That is so powerful. And it makes so much sense!

Anna: Right? It’s about being intentional.

When we were younger, friendships just happened. We were in school together, in the same dorm, on the same team. As adults, we have to be deliberate. We have to ask ourselves, How can I show up for this person in a way that makes them feel seen, valued, and supported?

Aviva: I love that. And I feel like we don’t talk about that enough. People assume friendship should just be easy—but really, great friendships require effort and intention.

Anna: Exactly!

I always say, if we applied the same level of intentionality to friendships that we apply to romantic relationships, we’d have much stronger friendships. Think about it—when you start dating someone, you put in effort. You plan dates, you check in, you make time for them. But with friendships, we often take a passive approach.

Aviva: That is such a good point. And I love that your book gives actual tools—practical strategies for maintaining and deepening friendships. Because we aren’t really taught how to do that.

Anna: Exactly! And my hope is that it makes people feel less alone. Because if you’re feeling like your friendships are shifting, or you’re struggling to make new friends, or you’re wondering, Is it just me?—the answer is no. This is something we are all navigating.

Aviva: That is such a reassuring message.

Anna, I could talk to you for hours about this, but I want to respect your time! Tell everyone where they can find you and your book.

Anna: Thank you so much! You can find me on Instagram, @annagoldfarb. I also have a Substack called Friendship Explained, where I write about all things friendship. And my book, Modern Friendship, is available wherever books are sold!

Aviva: Amazing. And I just want to say—your book is truly wonderful. It made me feel so seen and gave me so many tools for navigating friendship. Thank you so much for being here today.

Anna: Thank you! This was such a joy.

Aviva: And to everyone listening—I hope this conversation helped you feel more normal and less alone in your friendships. We’ve got this!