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“You’re holding your baby too much.” “Just let them cry it out.” “You’ll spoil them if you respond every time they cry.”
I remember it so vividly—the well-meaning, but often exasperating, advice from my mother, my mother-in-law, or even a friend who, with the best of intentions, told me I was holding my baby too much. That I should just let him cry it out. That I was going to “spoil” him by nursing whenever he was hungry.
If you’ve ever heard these words—or wondered yourself whether nurturing your baby too much could backfire—you’re not alone. Or maybe, exhausted and overwhelmed, you’ve even wondered yourself—am I doing this right? Should I be sleep training? Should I be encouraging my baby to be more independent? In a world overflowing with conflicting parenting advice, it’s easy to feel uncertain.
But here’s the truth I came to know—not just as a mother, but as a midwife, a clinician, and a student of birth and mothering anthropology. All around the world, in cultures deeply rooted in ancestral wisdom, nurturing looks exactly like what so many of us instinctively do: holding, soothing, responding, and connecting. I studied the early groundbreaking research of Kennell and Klaus, Ashley Montagu, Dana Raphael, and others, who affirmed what generations of parents have known in their bones—babies don’t thrive on separation. They thrive on love.
At some point in my journey, I came across a quote that brought me a sense of relief. To paraphrase: You can’t spoil a baby with love. The only thing you can spoil is a piece of fruit left on a shelf.
And yet, despite decades of research affirming the power of nurturing care, parents today are still bombarded with outdated myths—told to push their babies toward independence before they’re ready, to let them cry it out, to override their own instincts in favor of sleep schedules and strict routines.
That’s why I’m so thrilled to welcome Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum to On Health. Dr. Kirshenbaum is a neuroscientist, doula, infant and family sleep specialist, and the author of The Nurture Revolution: Grow Your Baby’s Brain and Transform Their Mental Health. Her work confirms what so many of us have felt deep inside, and the science is also clear: responding to our babies isn’t spoiling them—it’s shaping their brains for a lifetime of emotional resilience and mental health.
In this episode, we’ll dive into the science of nurture, debunking the outdated myths that have led generations of mothers to question their instincts. We’ll explore:
- Why babies need us to help them regulate their emotions
- The neuroscience behind sleep training—and why much of it conflicts with what we know about brain development
- How small, intentional acts of nurturing can buffer against stress and even heal intergenerational trauma
And because so many of today’s mothers are raising babies without a village—without partners, paid leave, or community support—we’ll also talk about what it means to nurture in ways that are sustainable, healthy, and compassionate for both you and your baby.
Dr. Kirshenbaum’s work is a breath of fresh air in a culture that pressures us to do it all. Her insights offer clarity, confidence, and permission to parent with science-backed intuition.
I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation. Let’s dive in.
Episode Takeaways
- Nurture is not about spoiling your baby; it’s about building their brain for resilience and mental health.
- Co-regulation—lending your calm brain to your baby—is essential in early childhood development.
- Cultural myths about independence and self-soothing have done parents a disservice; nurturing connection is the foundation for secure, confident children.
- Parenthood is also a time of brain transformation for adults—a chance for growth and healing.
- Mothers need to give themselves grace: nurturing care is important, but perfection is not the goal.
- Fathers, partners, and broader systems of support are essential for creating a nurturing environment for babies and caregivers alike.
- Systemic changes like paid parental leave and greater societal support are critical to empowering parents and fostering a nurture revolution.
Links and Resources
- Greer’s book, The Nurture Revolution
- Greer Kirshenbaum’s website
- Greer’s workshops, resources, and coaching for parents and professionals
- Safe cosleeping guidelines from the Mother-Baby Behavioral Sleep Lab at University of Notre Dame
- Aviva’s podcast on colic in babies
- Join The Mama Pathway, Aviva’s complete pregnancy, postpartum, and new mama journey
Join The Conversation
- Tune in to the full conversation to learn from Greer and me
- Let us know your thoughts on this episode on social media! Tag me @dr.avivaromm and Greer @drgreerkirshenbaum
- Don’t forget to share this episode with someone in your life, be it a new mama, a curious grandparent, or a caregiver who could learn about the power of nurture
Don’t Miss Out
Make sure to subscribe to On Health wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you found this episode helpful, please leave a review—it helps us reach more women like you who need this information.
Transcript: The Science of Nurture and The Truth About Sleep Training with Greer Kirshenbaum
This transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Aviva: Hey everyone, and welcome back to On Health for Women. I remember it so well as a young mama, it feels like it was yesterday, but so many times that my mother-in-law or my mom, or even a well-meaning, but definitely interfering friend told me I was holding my baby too much. I should just let my baby cry it out or that I was going to spoil my baby by nursing him even when he was hungry. Perhaps you've heard some of these comments or even wondered yourself, in a sea of conflicting parenting information and maybe in moments of being overwhelmed yourself, and believe me, I've been there like when you're exhausted and so tired of trying to figure out how to get your baby to sleep because all you need is a minute alone and you do start wondering What can I do about sleep training?
Or maybe I just need to let the baby cry it out. I was really fortunate in an extremely unusual situation to also be a young midwife at the same time that I was starting my mothering journey. So I was raising my oldest kids while also studying birth and mothering anthropology practices around the world. So I knew what nurture looked like around the world, and I also knew that what I was trying to do looked a lot like that. I also was studying the early work on nurture and response and brain development and compassion. People like Kennel and Klaus, Ashley Montague, Dana Raphael, and others who really led the way on this even as early as back is in the seventies. But somewhere along the way, what really stuck was a quote that I heard that kind of just brought me peace and it said, and I don't know who even said this, and I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but basically you can't spoil your baby by holding and loving your baby.
The only thing that you can spoil is leaving a piece of fruit on the shelf. And so it just gave me this sense of relief that I was on the right track, even though I was kind of in that first wave of mama's reclaiming high touch parenting with breastfeeding and baby wearing and family bed and all of that. But the questions that I grappled with are questions that so many mamas still wrestle with in a world of conflicting and confusing and overwhelming amounts of advice.
At the heart of it, all we want is the same thing to deeply nurture our children and support them in having the very best start in life for their physical and emotional and cognitive health. My On Health guest today, Dr. Kirschenbaum, has had a lot of these questions herself, and she's here to share what her research and her experience have taught her so that we can all have clarity, confidence, and science backed insights as moms and parents.
Dr. Kirschenbaum is a neuroscientist, a doula, an infant and family sleep specialist, and the author of The Nurture Revolution: Grow Your Baby's Brain and Transform their Mental Health. Her work shows us that nurturing care, holding, soothing, responding, and connecting is not spoiling our babies. In fact, it's part of the recipe for building their brain for a lifetime of emotional resilience and mental health. In this episode, we're going to explore the science of nurture and debunk the myths that have told us as moms for generations to push our babies toward independence before they're ready.
We'll talk about why our babies need us to help them regulate their emotions and why sleep training advice often conflicts with neuroscience and how small intentional nurturing acts can help buffer against stress and perhaps even help heal intergenerational trauma. And because I know that so many mamas today are raising children without villages, without partners, and without systemic support like paid leave, we'll also talk about what it means to nurture our babies and ourselves in ways that are sustainable, healthy, and compassionate. Greer's work is a breath of fresh air in a culture that es us to do it all and supports us while we are trying to do it all for our baby's health. And I can't wait to share her insights with you. So let's dive in. Greer, welcome.
Greer: Thank you, Aviva. It's so wonderful to be here.
Aviva: And just so that everyone knows how much we wanted to be here, you all, we had 30 minutes, I'm not kidding of tech issues getting on the call. We finally diagnosed that it was Greer's computer fan, and so shes now wearing these super bright headset of her son's and on her husband's computer, so we had the total technical rescue. I'm so glad we're chatting.
Greer: Me too, me too. I was really looking forward to this
Aviva: So anyone who spent any time around a baby, it's just obvious, right? You can just practically see their brain growing in front of your eyes with all the milestones and the little things they do that they couldn't do yesterday. And it's so fun to take in all these little touchstones touchpoints and milestones, and we know it's important, but let's take a step back and really get into the neuroscience of why this early brain development, the infant brain is so important and what is going on. Can you walk us through what's happening in this critical period and why this window is so essential for building emotional resilience and mental health?
Greer: Absolutely. I work with parents every day. I have a couple little babies in my family right now, so I'm seeing this up close and personal too, which is so wonderful. Parents know how remarkable this time is, as you said, right? We can see our babies rapidly changing day to day, sometimes minute to minute when they figure out something new or do something new. And I think that's part of the reason why parents are so sometimes anxious and stressed about this time because they can see that right in front of them. Wow, this is an incredible amount of growth and change, and my baby's a miracle in so many ways right in front of me. And so it can bring on those questions of how do I maximize this time? How do I give my baby everything they need to thrive during this time? I think all parents know that, but we've been really led on the wrong path in a lot of ways to achieving that for our babies. And so I think the first piece in helping parents with that goal of doing their best and giving their baby everything they need is really understanding the infant brain. It is so miraculous, so unique.
Every time I say these facts, it still kind of blows my mind. In a baby's brain, they're connecting about 1 million connections per second as they grow. Unbelievable.
Aviva: It's no pun intended, but it is mind blowing. It's like a switchboard lighting up all over the place.
Greer: There's nothing else that we know of that is this complex, this rapidly developing and astonishing, right? It is absolutely incredible. So yeah, every second a million new connections are formed in our baby's brain. So they truly are vastly different minute to minute, day to day, and their brains function in really unique ways that generally not really understood by the kind of mainstream parenting that we see.
Aviva: What got you on the journey? What was like, I love this stuff. I’ve got to study babies’ brains.
Greer: So it started with me. I was very, I would say high needs baby if my mom tells everybody my story.
Aviva: Of course, moms love to call us out on these things. What is that?
Greer: Absolutely. I think part of it, and you kind of touched on this in your intro, is infancy, which in neuroscience is defined as the first three years of life for a baby from conception to age three, it's an unbelievably emotional time for us as moms and for us as babies. We talked about this a little bit for our babies. Their entire emotional system is developing and being shaped by the relationships and experiences that they have. And for us as moms, it's so highly emotional. So the memories are so salient and they're with us forever, which is
Aviva: It's true. And probably it's like our mom saying, Hey, badge of honor. I survived that. She survived it. I survived it. We're good.
Greer: Yes, exactly, exactly. Especially for babies like me who were really intense. It makes these years even more intense. So yeah, I cried a lot. I could never be put down. I never spent a second in a crib, couldn't sleep alone. My mom responded with really high nurture. I bed shared. I breastfed for two years. She was empathetic to my stress and my emotions, and that really stayed with me my whole life. I was always really interested in it. And when it came time for me to study to choose what I was going to study after high school, I went into neuroscience on my path to medical school. I thought I was going to go to medical school, but I started within neuroscience focusing on these critical periods of early life. So I studied how vision is our entire visual system is shaped in early life. Our hearing is shaped in early life. And then as my studies continued, all of this emotional brain research came out too to really show how critical early life experiences for emotional and mental health development too. So yeah, it started with my own interest and sort of trying to understand what happened I think, and just grew and grew from there.
Aviva: That's a beautiful story. Was your mom a therapist? Was she more kind of hippie, alternative parenting mom or just did she just have this intuitive thing or all of the above?
Greer: Yes, all of the above. But not in that order. She had the intuition that was very strong, and she went to La Leche meetings. And that was her support. That was her biggest support for this style because I know all the people around her similar to what you communicated were telling her. She was spoiling me and my brother was the same as me too. So spoiling me and my brother. The reason why we were so needy was because she was giving us all this attention and being so empathetic to us. So she was up against a lot, but she was very, very confident in her approach. She really had a very strong intuition about it. And now she's a therapist, but she wasn't back then.
Aviva: That's amazing. So excuse me. We will edit that out. So in your book, you say that we've been lied to for generations about what babies really need. What are the most common myths that you want to debunk, and why do these keep persisting?
Greer: I sometimes will stay in my little nurture bubble with my nurture colleagues and the families I see. And sometimes I'll venture out and go and see what's going on. And I've done that recently and I see these myths are still so strong out there. The voice don't spoil. Your baby is still so strong and parents are really, I see parents being really, really hurt by it as well, both babies and parents. The biggest one, I think the biggest one, or at least the biggest one right now for me is that babies have to learn to self-soothe and be independent.
Aviva: I heard that. I mean, that's not even new. I mean, I can remember having my baby go to sleep in a front carrier and my oldest is 39 and my mom saying that to me 39 years ago and then saying it with my second, the baby needs to do this, baby needs to do that. I'm like, it doesn't really seem like anyone else in any part of the world ever traditionally has done that. So why should our babies?
Greer: Absolutely. In western culture, when modern medicine came on, the first person to start this myth and this kind of voice in our ear was Emmett Holtz. He wrote a book that said babies had to be put in their crib, shut the door, leave them alone. They have to exercise their lungs. They have to learn to self-soothe. He even said things like their hands should be all bound up in metal gloves so that they couldn't suck their hands because that self-soothing was not okay either is very extreme, the roots of this, and they've just stayed. They're still here and there are different forms, different people communicating this stuff. But I always find it's really important for parents to know where it comes from because they've got a voice inside saying, listen to your baby. You actually have brain changes as a mom and a dad that make you really sensitive to cries so that you make sure you hear those cries, you've got brain changes to make you go and help that baby and go to that baby and help them when they communicate. And then we've got this history of doctors who never took care of babies, who have zero research to back any of this up saying, don't spoil them, don't spoil them. That's all there is on that side. And on the side of nurture, there's 200,000 years of human behavior culture, and now we've got at least 30 years of neuroscience, but 70 years plus of attachment research and anthropology and so much good information that supports us to nurture our babies.
Aviva: I loved learning, and maybe you can speak a little bit to this about how oxytocin, we think of it as the love and cuddle hormone, but it does so much more. It gives us some resilience and empathy, but part of that is my understanding is it helps us to be more receptive to and perceptive of some of these cues that we're getting from our baby's facial expressions sound and that our babies also so can read our, I remember watching a video in my early midwifery years and we're talking around 19 80, 81, and it was, I believe a kennel and Klaus video, and it was maybe like eight month to 1-year-old baby, and the mom was depressed and they were showing the baby's facial responses in response to the mother. So at first, the baby was kind of emulating the mom's kind of lack of expression, that flat facial expression. But then the baby was getting more and more and more agitated and amped up to try to get a response from the mom. So talk about some of these cool brain changes that we go through and how that interacts with what's going on with our baby's brain and development.
Greer: The oxytocin is such an important messenger in this whole process, chemical neurotransmitter. So when we change into mothers, it's an enormous transformation, which now is starting to be really recognized. We call it matrescence…
Aviva: Which Dana Raphael coined that term. I love to give credit to her for that.
Greer: Absolutely, absolutely. And many, many years ago as well, just sort of now becoming really, really popular, we undergo an enormous transformation, which is almost as big as adolescence. And we fully understand how a child transforms so dramatically through adolescence. It's that big for us as mothers too, and fathers and fathers through the same or similar kind of mechanisms. But the other thing that's really interesting about it is that it's a dose dependent change. So the more we nurture our babies, the more connected and responsive and sensitive we are and close the more oxytocin we get. I think of it as our brain just bathing in oxytocin. So if our brain's going to be taking a bath, we're going to put oxytocin in that bath, and that's going to lead to major brain changes in us as mothers and fathers. And same for our babies. We want their brains bathe in oxytocin as much as possible sort of incubated in it as they grow. And so for us as moms to change, when we have more oxytocin, we are able to be more empathetic to our babies. And so those are changes in our insula, which help us understand what's happening in others' minds and how others feel. So our empathy and also our interception, so our gut feelings can sort of get stronger signals from our body to be
Aviva: I love the concept of interoception. I have to just say I've written about it in my last two books, and I'm just like this deep ability to trust our gut because it's literally giving us chemical and neurologic messages. It's so profound.
Greer: Absolutely. And so many people, when they become mothers, that's their calling to get in touch with that sense. We can often spend our lives cut off from it, and it's an invitation for many of the mothers I work with anyway, to start to get familiar with both being aware of those signals from inside, and also to be open to them and to be able to respond to them and just to put in those myths of parenting are cutting us off from those, they're really trying to say, you can't trust your gut. You can't trust these feelings. And so opening that channel is so important for us as mothers. So that part gets strengthened. Our self-regulation gets strengthened, those parts of our prefrontal cortex and then our fear centers get remodeled, and our amygdala as well, a lot of that is to be protective of our baby. Those are some of the big ones. And also our reward system gets changed so that our baby becomes very rewarding and we're addicted a little bit to our baby's smell and interacting with them those ways,
Aviva: The feel of their head and smelling their heads, it really is kind of a yummy drug, really.
Greer: Absolutely.
Aviva: So one of the biggest myths that you shared that you'd like to challenge is this self-soothe myth. And I'd love to talk more deeply about that, particularly this idea that our babies need us to teach their brains how to regulate stress. What does the science say about co-regulation as a term? I love the term, and I think it's a term that I think about in terms of relationship, marriage, friendships. There's so many different ways that we can co-regulate, but it sounds like it starts when we're really young and the ability to do it starts when we're really young.
Greer: Absolutely, yes. There is this obsession with when will my baby self-soothe? When will they be independent? And as you say, I actually wouldn't wish that on anybody to be totally independent emotionally, to always be self-regulating, right? We're a very social species, we're interdependent, and my wish really would be for my child and for all children and people to have a safe person to go to when you're struggling and having big feelings. And so that's really never the goal. Of course, we want our children to grow up to have some ability to manage emotions and have regulation skills, but when we're dealing with really big feelings, humans are meant to be interdependent. We're meant to co-regulate each other. And so it's not a race at all.
And babies are really not in it. They're not in that race whatsoever. They really need co-regulation. So when we understand the baby's brain, we can understand that we are asking babies to do things with their little, very unique immature brains that they really can't do and they can't do self-regulation.
They can't do what we call self-soothing, which is really self-regulation. And so what that means is going from a state of high stress to low stress, babies' brains are capable of feeling threatened from all different things. And for babies, some of that is simply being alone is a threat. You imagine being a vulnerable baby, they're capable of launching a stress response of releasing cortisol, of being in a stress response, but their only way to regulate that stress is through co-regulation. And they need a release of oxytocin in their brain and body in order to get from that state of high stress to low stress. So that is why they love when we hold them, touching babies, especially chest to chest, that's going to release tons of oxytocin, our smell releases, oxytocin in the baby, the sound of our voice, if it's soothing and comforting is going to release oxytocin. That really multisensory kind of input is going to really, really help. And so back to that spoiling myth, we have this intuition to go to a baby and soothe them that way when they, and that myth just cuts us off from it. It just completely cuts us off. And so we're telling moms spoil, be responsive and take care of your baby, but don't spoil them. So it's sort of, I don't know where that
Aviva: Can't win. You can't win.
Greer: I don't know what we do there, but I'm encouraging full responsiveness, don't hold back, spoil your baby. They're going to end up with a beautiful, beautiful emotional system.
Aviva: It's interesting to me hearing what you're saying because I can think of how many times, I mean, I've been a midwife for 40 years. I'm a family doctor. I take care of babies all the time, but around babies in my life and even my own grandkids, and I'll pick up a crying baby, or you just see mom struggling and then they're like here, especially when it's your grandchild, and then you get the baby and baby's like all of a sudden puts their head down and goes to sleep on your chest. And then mom's like, what's wrong with me? Or even another parent, right? Dad comes, other mom comes, other dad comes. And the primary person who's been trying to soothe the baby is exhausted, amped up, and they feel like something's wrong. But I do think it's just we forget that we have to calm ourselves and just look, sometimes you can be calm and your baby's colicky and your baby's still going to be screaming, crying and doing all the things. But what is your experience with that phenomenon? Mom's trying. Mom's exhausted. Mom's freaking out because crying babies is a distress sound for us too. It's not necessarily like the most calming. Then someone else takes the baby and it's like, ah, the baby's fine.
Greer: Absolutely. And part of co-regulation is something called emotional contagion. So that means that our emotions are contagious. So in order to co-regulate someone else, we need to be in a regulated state or a regulating state. And so when we do that and are able to be grounded and regulated to help our baby, our crying baby, our baby is going to then catch that emotion from us in terms of the physiology, they, our pupil size, our breathing rate, our heart rate, that is all taken in by the baby or by another person, and that helps them to come down in their stress. But if we are in an activated state and we can't fake it, sometimes we try to look calm on the outside, but we're racing heart racing anxious on the inside, the same physiology through our pupil size, heart rate, breathing rate is also going to be contagious to a baby. So all for Bob's taking breaks and having that support because we weren't meant to do parenting 24 hours a day, and it's a huge, huge ask of people.
Aviva: It really is. I was so early wave attachment parenting. I was like all continuum concept really into it, and I loved it. I would never change how I nurtured and mothered. It's also really, I found that I especially doing it in those early years, but even now for moms, there's a lot of, I think I, anxiety is the word that I think I would use to describe the feeling, but there's just this overwhelming sense of personal responsibility coupled with the fact that, I mean, whales don't mother alone, elephants don't mother alone, other species that have long gestations like we do do this in villages. And so many of us are trying to parent in ways that are kind of original to our human design, but doing it alone. How do you reconcile that? There are so many moms who are independent indie moms, single moms, people who live far from family, who don't necessarily have a community or network or just can't pass baby over when you need a break, a shower, or to go poop alone, especially when you have a little one. How do we deal with that in this modern time and do the high nurture?
Greer: It's tough. I think some people who are taking this approach, sometimes they assume that doing it alone is part of it. So I think that's the first step is to say, no one ever said that. So I would say taking an inventory of those human resources you have. Do you have grandparents around? Do you have aunt or uncles around? Do you have best friends around or even mom, friends around? That can help because even if we can get those little breaks daily would be great, but even if they're weekly or even less than that, we're going to do a lot better. And so one kind of hack I had, I was alone. I was living away from family with my son. I had a really good friend with a baby around the same age, and her and I would figure it out together. It didn't cost any money.
We would spend days at each other's houses and one of us would take care of two babies while the other person went out and had a rest or did some yoga, went for a walk. That was one way that really helped, and I think accessible to many people. And even if it's not someone very well, it can be someone that you meet in those early days of motherhood and can figure that out together. Of course, there's paid options as well to have postpartum doula or to have a nanny to come in, even if it's for a few hours a week, that can be really helpful and without any of that support. It is tough. It is tough.
Aviva: Yeah, I found for me, having some designated time, even if it was like two hours to look forward to, I mean, sometimes you just need it when you need it. You need someone to spot you or give you a break, but having that kind of time built in was really helpful for me to have say, okay, I know that two hours on Saturday I'm going to just have a break. Partner's going to have baby. But I also had with my children, different babies at different times, a close girlfriend. I remember one time my friend Lisa and I, her oldest is a year older than my oldest, and we had just the two kids at that time and putting the kids in the car seat and going for a drive, and both kids fell asleep and we just parked and whispered. We had this whole hour and a half of it was raining. It was the best. It was the best. Yes,
Greer: I love it. I used to go for a drive out with my son in the back and have him fall asleep, and I would go through a drive-through, get a latte, listen to podcasts, call my friends, just have a nice little hour. So break that. That's a nice one you can do on your own too.
Aviva: Totally different. Put 'em in a front pack, a backpack, a stroller if refuse a stroller and go for work. Because often when you get out in nature, they conk out too. And especially when I found that when my babies were fussy, actually getting outside was almost like an immediate calmer. And we know other countries, Scandinavian countries maybe sleep outside even in the cold. They're bundled obviously and protected, but shifting the environment can really help.
Greer; Yes, there's the old saying, take them outside or get them wet.
Aviva: I sometimes say, step away from the baby. Step away from one minute, just step away. Calm you, step outside, put the baby somewhere if you're losing it, if you're amping up and you're both getting dysregulated
Greer: Completely. Another thing I really like to teach moms is to take just really small breaks throughout the day.
And this can do go a long way to prevent those giant outbursts. So if we're doing little tiny things throughout the day to manage stress and be aware of what's happening, we might not have those times where we're going to lose it and get really reactive. And so really simple ones. And also I like to link them with baby going to sleep because it also helps co-regulation. And how baby goes to sleep is to just do really simple breathing exercises. If you're feeding your baby to sleep or rocking them to sleep or walking them to sleep, close your eyes and just pay attention to your breath. Take some nice deep belly breaths sprinkled in through the day. Just one minute, little one or two minute little breaks can really, really make a difference.
Aviva: I love that. I used to sometimes put my baby in. We had a cloth baby bouncer, and the movement of the baby's feet, which just rock, the baby would self rock, and I would take a shower, didn't always work, but if baby was in a calm enough space to go in the baby bouncer, and then I could take that beautiful self-nurturing shower and the sound of the water would often help baby fall asleep, which was nice too.
Greer: Yeah, absolutely.
Aviva: So many mamas now the statistics in the US are actually disturbing and astonishing are experiencing some form of perinatal trauma. They're having difficult births, stressful births, or actually traumatic births for a variety of reasons. More moms than ever, or at least as far as we can tell from the data, are experiencing postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. No doubt some of this is parenting in isolation, modern obstetric system. And for some of these mamas, not a small amount, I really have a sense that if we were to measure, we would see that these experiences are blunting their oxytocin levels, and that may be part of what's happening, but baby is sometimes a trigger for the memories of these experiences. So there's kind of this vicious, complicated cycle hormonally, psychologically, emotionally. And then on top of it, the guilt that many of these mamas feel for not feeling as nurturing or as bonding, as bonded. And also we know that that connection and time with the baby can help elevate those hormones and help you feel better. How do you support mamas to navigate these challenges that are impacting their actual physiologic ability, not their desire, but their ability to nurture and get that beautiful cyclic response that's important.
Greer: We also have all these myths put on top of that too, right?
Aviva: Tell me more.
Greer: Yeah, so I mean, I've been a birth doula for a long time. I've seen a lot of hospital births where there's really, I don't even know how to say it. Terrible things happening in birth
Aviva: Disrespect.
Greer: Yes, yes. And you absolutely see it has an impact on connecting with baby and baby's experiences. Baby also experiences that birth as well.
Aviva: I feel like it impacts mom's ability to trust. It can interfere with her sense of confidence and power. The trickle down effect can be so significant.
Greer: Absolutely. And even in the sleep work I do, we go into this as well sometimes thinking about what happened in during conception, during pregnancy, during birth and immediate postpartum, all of these experiences can be really traumatic in the modern world. And having a place to process those experiences could be a really, really good start. And so I'll often refer parents to different therapists and different modalities to process their birth story. Some people don't even get to tell their birth story honestly to anybody.
Aviva: I think birth storytelling is so deeply important. My midwife mentor, she would come to the first postpartum visit after a home birth in 24 hours and ask mom to start just retelling her birth story and then encouraged her to write it down or just would take some notes on the points so that mom would remember when she had that space to do it. How we tell our story, how we retell our story, how we experienced our story, how we tell the ending or the chapters of it. There's really good literature emerging on how therapeutic this can be. I dunno if you've explored much of that. I find it so fascinating.
Greer: Yeah, I've only seen it in practice. I haven't looked at the research yet, but I was actually,
Aviva: Yeah, a guy named, I want to say Jonathan Adler. He's done a lot of work around storytelling and sort of like if you think about your story in chapters, if you end it on almost like imagine a six part Netflix series, if you end it on a cliffhanger or a really stressful point, or if you bring in resolution and healing, that can actually change how you feel on a physiologic neurologic level.
Greer: That's beautiful. Yeah. The other factor that could be really big and also triggering as you mentioned, is our own experience as babies. And so we don't usually have any autobiographical memory of our baby experience, but we have, our emotional brain is formed during these first three years of life, and so we have a lot of emotional memory, implicit memory from that time. And so sometimes healing and processing some of those experiences can also be really helpful.
Aviva: How do you recommend that? I love the more, it's not really new or contemporary, but the sort of second iteration of Stanislav Graf's work, which was around something called holotropic breath work. So he was originally an LSD psychotherapy researcher, but did some really early work, I think in the fifties, sixties, around rebirthing as he was doing his LSD psychotherapy with patients over in Czechoslovakia. And this idea that we have this unconscious propensity to almost recapitulate our own birth trauma without realizing that at play. And so then he uses this whole technique of breath work to help us get in touch with that sort of foundational experience, that infant experience. How do you suggest people get in touch with that?
Greer: Yeah, a lot of people, they want to feel that still practicing. People are still practicing his methods. And there is also an entire field called birth psychology. And so there are a lot of therapists in that field who work with people on their birth story and their early life experiences. And a lot of moms can benefit from that, even in pregnancy, starting in pregnancy.
Aviva: I agree.
Greer: Or postpartum. Yeah, absolutely. And the straightforward sort of encouraging moms who are having a hard time to bond with their babies, I think it's important for them to know that there's no one saying that it has to be immediate, it has to be strong, it has to be an overwhelming sense of connection. And that happens for some parents, for some moms, but not for everybody. And I think the key message is that we're working towards it. And so if we are experiencing postpartum depression or anxiety, really trying to get as much support as we can in those early days, that includes nutritional support and regulation practices, therapy, some of this narrative work and early life experience therapy is really helpful. And just being really patient with that connection with your baby. I talk about this a lot in my book of just having these kind of really slow periods of time where you're just lying with your baby, noticing them, seeing if they communicate, practicing, going kind of back and forth, babbling and cooing and touching each other and just having no pressure there and just letting that experience build and that relationship build can be really, really helpful and just letting that oxytocin flow happen in its own time.
Aviva: I think also something that gets overlooked to what you're saying, and I can say this personally as a of four kids is every baby is different too.:
Each of my kids had a different personality in pregnancy as newborns, and I can look at them now as grownups and go, oh, right, that's who this person has basically been all along. And so one of my babies was like, practically, let me crawl back inside you. Whereas another one, for example, she would nurse and be done and go off to do her thing even when she was learning to walk and would kind of do that, or the toddler, the little baby standing up on the sofa and tip back and fall. She would kind of nurse for a second and then be right back up at it. So I think as moms, one of the things, and I say this a lot in the podcast, I say this a lot in my medical work, I say it in mama pathway, is that as moms, I don't even know anymore whether it's really our job to, and I'm doing air quotes here, shape our babies as it is to be really attentive and alert to who they are and respond to who our babies are.
Me, I'm playing with this fine line of what we shape them with our values and we shape them with our nurturing, which we're going to talk more about, but also like, well, who is that baby? If it's your first baby and it's a baby that's not as like gooey cuddly, let me crawl back inside. You can feel like you're doing something wrong, but it's just who that baby is too sometimes.
Greer: Yeah. And it is another product of us raising babies in the wild, raising babies as solitary parents. Right.
Aviva: You don't know. It's not just you. Right. You see the variety if you're raising babies in community.
Greer: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, so many of the people I work with, the first baby they ever hold is their own. And so you're not only learning everything postpartum and have you become a mom, but you're learning everything about babies. Where in the past when we live more communally, we would have nieces and nephews and our friends' babies, and we would hold babies a lot and wear babies and understand that range of temperament and stress cues and tired cues and all these important things.
Aviva: Absolutely. We went to birth, we nursed other babies, we had other mama's nurse, our sisters. It was so different. And not to romanticize, but this parenting in isolation and this sort of high nurture, mothering and isolation, we really have to take care of ourselves. And I also feel like we have to understand that that is more how it's meant to be because that will give us permission to ask for help. I think that's another badge of motherhood is somehow we're supposed to know how to do it. It's supposed to be natural and easy, and we're supposed to do it alone and not take help. That's somehow a sign of defeat.
Greer: It'll work that way. I always recommend that if people are feeling that way, it's difficult to connect and maybe some postpartum mood, having some issues. Bring the baby, whisper that into your house, having a postpartum doula around, that's our job as a postpartum doula is to model some of this care because again, we're kind of replacing what may have been there. In other times, invite your best friend who's great with babies, your grandmother, your mother, your aunt, someone, anyone in your life who's kind of like that baby person, have them around. Go spend time around when you're pregnant. Go spend time around other moms and babies and just kind of get into that world. We're so separated like maidens and mothers, and we have to mix it up a bit
Aviva: Well, this is another important piece, and you mentioned the oxytocin changes in dad's brains. So let's just say we're in either a heteronormative couple, you're in a hetero couple, or you have a brother or a best friend who's male. And I interviewed Erica Jossa from Mom Well on the podcast, and she really made some profound points about, I think to some extent a feminist critique on the idea that we have internalized as women, that we are the best nurturers and that we have to do it all. We have to hold the baby, we have to put the baby to sleep, we have to soothe the baby. And you mentioned the oxytocin changes in dad's brains. Can we talk about that? Because I think that it is a really important piece to be able to distribute that mother load
Greer: Completely. I think that is another assumption that a lot of moms who want to be these attachment parenting, nurtured parenting. Sometimes we assume that too. And for dads, it is also a dose dependent brain change. So if we'd start encouraging lots of skin to skin time with dad in those early months, my husband, when he came home from work, my son would go straight, take naked, right onto my husband's chest and he'd sleep there or hang out with him there. They did bath time together, lots of baby wearing, same for my husband. And so it's important. It's important. Those first 12 to 14 weeks postpartum, that's when the dads have a sensitive period to change their brains too. So we really do want to be encouraging that to happen as well.
And so if they're not having a lot of nurturing care, their brain's not going to change as much. They're not going to be as sensitive. It doesn't mean that they can't cultivate it and learn it over time if that hasn't already happened, but it's great to start that way if we can. And dads do have those abilities too, right? Oh my gosh, I can't remember. Ruth Feldman's work in homosexual couples shows that it's more that it's the amount of care. So if a primary caregiver dad, his brain changes are going to look more similar to a primary caregiving mom than a secondary caregiving dad. So it really is this dose response. The amount that dads are involved, the more they're going to change, the more sensitive and nurturing and caring they can be for sure. And we do not have to do it all. Definitely not.
Aviva: And what a load off of us to feel really good about that, the gift that keeps on giving, right? We're sharing the oxytocin love through sharing the parenting responsibilities.
Greer: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's so important. And knowing too, babies, they do usually have the preference for that for mom.
Aviva: Yeah. Well, they smell milk, they smell our bodies. They know our heartbeats. They're primally bonded to us.
Greer: Exactly, exactly. And so it might be that the choice times, right? When they're in a great mood, it's time to go to dad when they're obviously, when they're not hungry, if they're breastfeeding. But there are tons of opportunities for that to happen.
Aviva: Alright, so we can't talk about parenting and burnout and all the overwhelm and the myths without talking about perhaps the biggest challenge, which is sleep.
And so when I was young momming, so mid eighties to early nineties, it was really the model of put your baby in a crib, let your baby cry to sleep. I just couldn't do it. And yet at the same time, there really weren't any popular. There wasn't the internet, there weren't really popular sleep training techniques at that time either. So I felt drawn toward co-sleeping, letting my baby fall asleep on me. It was just sort of a normal way that I did it. I hear so many moms now asking me about sleep training and so many methods out there. Let's talk about the science of nurture, baby's brain development, sleep training, what parents can do to support healthy sleep for their babies and themselves. What should we be doing and thinking about?
Greer: Yeah, yeah. The sleep training. The sleep training kind of industry thrives on all myths and mistruths about the baby brain. That biggest one is the self-soothing and it's really tied into that have to learn. The biggest one is they have to learn to sleep alone starting, usually it's like four months or six months is when it starts. They say they have to do this or they'll never sleep.
Aviva: Oh, I had a parent, a mom recently in my mama pathway group support group, which we do every other Thursday, and she said her pediatrician told her that her four month old needed to start having a regular bedtime to establish a circadian rhythm. And she was really struggling. I mean, they could kind of dim the lights at around eight, but they weren't going to go to bed at eight and their baby wasn't going to naturally fall asleep. So what, are there any sleep training? Just tell parents everything we need to know about sleep training. What are your thoughts? There are people in the sort of more alternative birthing community that are also offering sleep training so it’s not just this traditional model.
Greer: It's very lucrative and people who are doing it believe it's helping. They've believed the whole series of these mistruths that lead them to truly think they're helping and helping.
Aviva: Well, it's also being tied to feeding baby. So that's another thing I'm seeing with some of the methods. It's like feed baby X, Y, Z at a certain time so belly is full and then baby won't wake up during the night and I'm like, you have a four month old breastfeeding. Baby's not, no, that's not how your baby's going to wake up in two and a half hours. If your baby doesn't and gets to the occasional sleep through the night, that's fine, but that’s not really how it works. So what is true, what is happening in baby's brains and what can we do to support babies and still sleep ourselves?
Greer: It's really, really hard for parents to face this stuff. So because really a lot of these things that they say, baby, if they eat, like you just said, if they eat, if they have a bottle of this size, then they'll sleep through the night. If you put them to bed before seven o'clock, then they'll sleep 12 hours. All of these things. And then babies behave like babies
Aviva: Every now and then you have the baby that does sleep through the night. You have the family where the baby sleeps through the night and they did the sleep training and they think it was the sleep training when it was just baby. And so it's confusing for parents too.
Greer: Absolutely. I think the first place, the beginning of where we should start with these truths is that infant sleep has an enormous variation. The number of hours, babies sleep every 24 hours, huge variation. It's so unlikely that two babies are going to be sleeping even just the same number of hours in a day, but also unlikely that their nap times will be the same, their bedtimes will be the same, their nap lengths will be the same. And so this whole kind of sleep training industry is just prescribing sleep for babies. They're like, oh, you're six months. That means you nap at 11 o'clock and one o'clock and you go to sleep at six 30. And it has nothing to do with what's going on inside that baby, that baby's physiology. So it's really important to follow the baby's cues to know when they're tired. Instead of these sort of schedules, it's really important to understand that babies sleep the best and they sleep the healthiest when they are in proximity to their caregivers.
And so even though the American Academy of Pediatrics still says babies should be sleeping in the same room as parents for at least six months up to 12 months, people are putting the babies in their own room at four months and sleep training, right? That's putting them at risk. But their sleep quality and their sleep architecture is the most beneficial when they are sleeping close because they are receiving our sensory input, our breathing, our smell, our sounds, and that is a safety signal to babies that releases oxytocin in the babies. Again, we get to bathe their brains and oxytocin all night while it's developing, forming beautiful connections for health, and it gives babies the sleep that they need in many, many ways. Another thing that's important is night waking is also normal for babies and also has that huge variation. So it's totally normal for babies to be waking up, having a quick feed and going right back to sleep throughout the night. And when we can kind of teach parents a lot of these truths, have them sleep close and also give parents some optimization for their sleep. Mom's going to sleep early, getting naps, trying to sleep in when they can, and also having dad or other parent play a role.
Aviva: Get up with them.
Greer: Yes, exactly.
Aviva: What are these things on Instagram? You see this video and dad wakes up in the morning and baby slept through the night and mom's like, no, you slept through the night.
Greer: Exactly, exactly. We need two parents involved. And sometimes other people too, parents can have enough rest. I always tell the parents, I work with all parents who have a baby, they're going to be tired. It's tiring,
But you don't have to be exhausted or sleep deprived if we set it all up to be close and responsive. The other big, digging into the biggest myth of sleep training that babies have to learn, they have to learn to fall asleep on their own. When we actually videotape babies who have done sleep training, we see that they still wake up the same amount. Their sleep architecture is not different. The total amount of sleep overnight is not different. So sleep training doesn't change any feature of infant sleep. It stops babies from signaling for help when they're waking up and needing someone. And so what happens is instead of signaling, babies are still feeling that stress of being alone, but through sleep training, they've learned, when I'm in this specific environment, if I signal no one comes and actually evolutionary speaking, that's dangerous to be signaling without someone coming.
So it's using their stress system to shut down and fall asleep that way. And we know that because while some babies, like you said, maybe this process happens once, that's not really the case for most babies. Most babies, if the environment changes, like they go on a trip, they need to be sleep trained again. They haven't learned to fall asleep on their own. They've just learned that in that environment no one helps. But on vacation, my parents did respond. So I can go back to signaling when I need help. And so they get sleep trained. Again, if they're teething or Ill often parents will respond or they'll be instructed through the sleep training kind of protocols to respond, and then they'll have to be sleep trained again. So parents can make informed decisions about this, but they do deserve to know what really is happening because that's not what they're being told.
Aviva: Yeah, it's so complicated. I always feel so sensitive. I don't want anybody to feel guilty for anything they're doing or feel like they made a mistake or doing wrong. And especially for moms who have older kids, now, this isn't about blame or shame or guilt. And look, we all do what we know at the time and we all do what we can cope with and handle at the time. And so this is really more about understanding one, the truth about physiology and neurobiology supporting you. If you are going through sleep challenges remind you that it is normal to be tired and to be woken up. And that's sort of part of the journey of it. And just to really extend that actual level of empathy for all moms and for moms who are going it alone and don't have somebody to share the load during the night and can't afford nighttime help or don't have family nearby, what do you recommend in terms of coping and getting through the night waking?
Greer: Yeah. I absolutely work with moms in that situation and we can figure out a plan for them to still be responsive at night and have enough rest to get on with everything. With all of the sleep training rules for babies, I actually often find those actually get in the way of baby sleep. And so when we can optimize sleep, there's a lot of great information out there that can help us optimize sleep for babies and optimize sleep for moms. And when we get all of that in place, sleep becomes much more manageable. And even if baby is waking up having a feed breast or bottle, it's a moment and everyone can just have that moment, get back to sleep. It's not true for us as moms that we need uninterrupted sleep. We can still have those brief wake-ups to respond to baby and be rested enough.
Aviva: I wonder what you think of co-sleeping. And I know the AAP still has strong recommendations about lack of safety of co-sleeping and some guidelines, but I did full transparency. I co-slept with my kids, and of course I got woken up in the night and I was a midwife too, so I got woken up because of that. But I found for the most part that babies went through various stages, whether they were teething or in a growth spurt where they might've woken up more at night, but for the most part, they woke up, I popped a breast in their mouth and they went back to sleep. And my sleep wasn't that crazy. Dysregulated. Yeah. What do you think?
It was easy. I didn't have to get up. I didn't have to get up and get out of bed and fully wake myself up.
Greer: Absolutely. If we meet the guidelines for safe bed sharing and we're comfortable with it, that's my first choice. Same for families. Yeah, that's what I did as well. And if we don't meet the guidelines, we can also set up very close sleep. And so it could almost be that way.
Aviva: I've used for some parents, those little beds that slip, the little arms slip under the mattress so you can have your baby in an extension, almost like a bassinet that's kind of attached to the bed. And I find those, because even for families who meet the sleep guidelines, some of them have become anxious through things they've heard. Their pediatrician isn't recommending it or they're just scared of it. I've had moms who say, I live in a really cold climate and we have comforters, and my husband's going to put the comforter over the baby's head, and I don't want to have the baby in the middle, and I can't sleep on my right side the whole time. So what are some of the other workarounds that you like?
Greer: Yeah, I think that's the best of both worlds. Babies close, but on a separate surface if parents are uncomfortable. And then the third option is to have the crib right up next to your bed too.
Right? Absolutely. That's another option as well. And while the AAP is still not providing, they actually walked back some of their recommendations to your bed sharing other countries, including provinces in Canada, the UK and Australia, there's probably seven or eight governing bodies now that are providing safe bed sharing guidance for families. Because we know from surveying, at least 60% of parents are bringing a baby under six months into their bed. And abstinence only education is leading to tragedies. If we tell parents never, ever bed share, that means they're going to the couch, they're going to a recliner. And those are the most dangerous places for babies to sleep.
Aviva: So while we're at it, let's talk about some of the guidelines. So never sleeping in a bed with somebody who's inebriated or intoxicated in any way. Not having your bed up against the wall where baby can be between you, the bed, the mattress, and the wall. Let's drop a few more of these.
Greer: If we want a relatively firm mattress, make sure that the mattress is not sinking in. There's a good tool for that as well. No cords so that we don't want any our long hair around. Took on, tie our hair back, no strings on our clothing, no cords anywhere near the bed. The best place for bed sharing for the bed is actually having the mattress on the floor in the center.
Aviva: Actually, we had a big old family futon basically forever.
Greer: Absolutely. And having just one pillow that's away from the baby under mom's head, we want mom in a cuddle curl position. So on her side, like in a C shaped curl around, baby, baby at breast height, we want baby dressed in just one layer of breathable clothing. No history of smoking in the home. That's a contraindication. Premature babies should not bed share. And babies who aren't exclusively breastfeeding are also not recommended to bed share. And so more research has to be done on those two groups because a lot of people do fall into those groups and also have a baby that will only sleep bed sharing. And so that's an area of ongoing research, but those families can also benefit from that, having that sidecar bed
Aviva: Right up there. Yeah, you could Mom or dad can just reach over, have hand on babies back or belly actually, if baby's laying on back, obviously on belly and chest. Yeah, that sleep is another one. Yeah. And that's just a really nice, babies should always sleep on their back is what we were saying in the co-sleeping or sleeping alone. Those are great guidelines, and we'll put the links to some guidelines in the show notes too. Anything that you just as a mom yourself or this was the lesson, or this is what I came up against that you would want to share?
Greer: I think the thing that helped me so much in my early motherhood was really having this nurture as my north star, and just knowing I knew what my baby needed when he was tired. I knew what he needed when he was stressed. I knew what he needed when he was playful. And showing up was hard for all of those sometimes, and it is overwhelming and it is hard, and most of it is because we're not taking enough time to rejuvenate ourselves or not able to. But if I could, in those moments where it was hard, just take a deep breath and remind myself, you know what he needs right now, let's go for it. That was always the answer, and it always felt good once I could get through the feelings or have the feelings.
Aviva: Yes, big feelings is such a good term.
Greer: Yes.
Aviva: Yes. Other things too. And I extended nursed my babies, my children. I mean, I was voracious a lot of the times when I was breastfeeding, I was often forgetting to hydrate. And the simple thing of having steady blood sugar or staying well hydrated is quite impactful on our brains and our moods.
Greer: Oh, yes. Oh yes. Having a giant water bottle with you and snacks. When I reflect on the early days, it was the most incredible, beautiful experience I ever had and the hardest. And one of my colleagues was like, you know what? I didn't find it hard at all. And I was like, huh, what was that about? And I was like, she's like, well, my mom moved in with me. I was like, right. I'm like, did she feed you? And she's like, oh, yeah. She's like, I had breakfast, I had snacks. She made lunch. She made me dinner every night. And I was like, yeah, that's a big piece also.
Aviva:. Yes. It's amazing, at least if you have that relationship with your mom. Yes. We're also talking about newborn to age three, and so our children are going to start to express their needs differently. Our responses change. I remember hearing somebody say something like, bigger kids, bigger fences, meaning not that we're putting our kids in fences, or you have to change your response to accommodate the new place that your child has grown to. So think about a bigger yard. You've got to just keep extending the goalpost in a way, and it's like you're constantly relearning what this child needs at this moment, what their signals and messages mean at this moment. And as their demands. Maybe you're sleeping through the night with a three-year-old, but you're answering questions all day long, or hearing mama, mama having big tantrums and all the things.
Greer: Yes, absolutely. The emotional work that we do in those early years, I think that was the most surprising to me. How much both self-regulation and co-regulation is needed and required was huge. But it was also that really healing experience that I needed, and I hear this from so many of the moms who have this experience nurturing their babies. They say, nothing was more healing in my life. I am so transformed in this incredible way after these three years. And that doesn't mean they're not hard. They are hard. But I always say anything worth doing is really hard. Right.
Aviva: Well, and I think that it was interesting as a physician, I have to retake my board exams every 10 years, and I'm in that cycle now. And so there are these board prep questions, and one of the questions was, I, because I do family medicine, it's everything from newborns to elderly people and every aspect of life. And there just happened to be a question, you are seeing a one-year-old, and the mom is kind of reserved, quiet, looks a little down, and the whole point of the question was that she has a one-year-old and we need to screen her for postpartum depression. And we forget that postpartum, this infant stage for moms is a continual rollercoaster and relearning, but that postpartum, well, some people say postpartum is forever, but it's certainly not over at the first year. And it's important to give ourselves that grace also.
Greer: Yeah. Postpartum depression can show up a few years after birth.
Aviva: Absolutely. Absolutely.
You point out that parents are being failed socially by our low nurture society. As we wrap, I would love to hear what your take is on some of the really big cultural and systemic changes that we need to truly bring about support for parents and also a nurture revolution.
Greer: Yeah. I mean, you mentioned one of them, parental leave for moms and dads. So important if we're going to give parents a chance to grow their brains to health and sensitivity for themselves and babies, certainly the first few months postpartum, they need to be spending with babies, childcare. So it would be so lovely and important, continued care after birth. So many moms were cared for during pregnancy. We have the baby, and then no one asks us how we're doing.
Aviva: Yeah. And you see your OB at six weeks. I mean, you're so deep into postpartum at that point. It's like, hello?
Greer: Yes. So midwifery. If people can have a midwife, I always recommend that for sure, because you will have beautiful care for several weeks postpartum there. I think that on a bigger level is really just society. Understanding how critical the first three years are for the growth of babies and parents, and the health of our society does depend on how well we support babies and parents during these first three years. And so if we can do that through systemic changes, with leave, with support, fantastic. If we can do that emotionally by just recognizing what moms and dads are doing for their babies in this first three years, they still need support. They still need check-ins. They still need help many, many years after they have a baby. And it's not just in those first few months. That is really, really helpful as well.
And then I think the other thing that's really, really helpful would be other supports for moms. Sometimes when I see a mom postpartum, okay, we need a lactation consultant, we need a therapist, we need pelvic floor therapy. We need someone to help with some guidance for nutrition and supplements. The list is long, and that's really expensive too. And it's all care that we really should just be getting really, really highlighting this in this world of if we really have this nurture revolution, we would have moms and dads and babies really, really well supported physically and emotionally during this time so they can have that space and time to connect, be together, have that oxytocin flowing for everybody, and have these brains growing to health. That would just be the wish I have.
Aviva: Oh, Greer. I have a question I love to ask my guests at the top of the show, and that is, if you could tell your younger self anything, how old would she be and what would you tell her?
Greer: Ooh, great question.
Aviva: Juicy one.
Greer: I love it. I love it. I think I would tell my younger self, let me think, when did I start becoming a workaholic? A perfectionist, workaholic. Yeah, it was probably be in university, right? To understand there's so much more think then getting straight A's and to prioritize friendships, connections, relationships as well. And I had to start learning all about my emotional life, all about the importance of my friendships and connections and knowing myself that much, much later. So I would love to have that advice when I was younger.
Aviva: Greer, this conversation is so important. Thank you for joining me here on this episode. I know that is going to really be meaningful and important for so many mamas out there and the nurture that you bring, you're such a nurturing sharer and conversationalist.
Greer: Thanks, Aviva. So nice to be here.
Aviva: It's a pleasure. If you don't mind, I'd love to just give some recaps for everyone on some of our points that we've been talking about. I've been taking some notes here. So one takeaway is that nurture isn't spoiling your baby. It's shaping your baby's brain for resilience and mental health co-regulation, lending your Calm to baby is the foundation for lifelong emotional health. Cultural myths about self-soothing and independence are outdated. Nurturing connection is the way forward. Parents' brains are also transforming, and this is a time of tremendous opportunity for healing and growth and responsibility sharing. Mamas and primary caregivers need to care for themselves, especially in a culture that lacks support. Fathers and other caregivers are a key part of the nurture revolution and systemic changes like paid leave and better social support are critical for a nurture revolution.
For anyone listening who wants to learn more, please be sure to pick up Greer's book, The Nurture Revolution, and check out her workshops and her resources at nurtureneuroscience.com. Thank you for being here today, and for each of you who is part of the culture of changing the way we care for babies and mamas and families, I'll see you next time.
